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Jacob Bley (Seattle, WA) wroteon 15 January 2009 at 04:09
But still you just say stop fighting when the Israelis are the ones getting rockets lobbed at them so blame Hamas they cause the violence.
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Mary Hazineh Hazboun (Orlando, FL) replied to your poston 15 January 2009 at 07:51
Thank you Margaret for posting the truth.
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You replied to Jacob's poston 15 January 2009 at 22:36
Thank you Jacob for your reply .
The question is , how long will you like this 'unequal war of deliberate , indiscriminate shelling and annihilation ' to continue ?
We pray to the Lord and say ; " if you mark our sins , nobody will survive ". So , the Lord tamper's justice with mercy inspite of our multidinous 'sins' .
Israel in this war would seem to have had a humanitarian bypass ; KILLING A FLY WITH A HAMMER . By pursuing a renegade behaviour of flouting international laws, disregarding world opinion / outrage in the face of a carnage of civilian death toll of children and women , has lost it and lost the respect of the international community which it so flagrantly disregard .
The simple adage is :"a tree cannot make a forest" , and" a child that says his / her mother will not sleep , that child itself will never sleep
Regardless of all that has historically happened and still happening in that region , we can only pray that BOTH PARTIES STOP THE PERENNIAL BLAME GAME AND WARRING, GIVE NEGOTIATION A CHANCE THAT WILL EVENTUALLY LEAD TO A PEACEFUL CO-EXISTING TWO STATES OF ISRAEL AND PALESTINE !
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Robby Hart replied to your poston 16 January 2009 at 00:29
As soon as you mention historical context one knows it will never end.
If people like you keep raising bloody history, and I mean bloody, all you do is invoke the members of the opposite beliefs to recall their grievances. And they do go back to before Jesus.
To believe they will stop is ignorant. Either group will wipe the other out eventually. Even most of the Arab world are sick of Hamas and so are most Palestinians. Get rid of those bastards and maybe there's a chance. That's what Israel is attempting to do. Annhiilate Hamas. Sick but how else can they put an end to it?
Hamas of course are trying to do the same to Israel so don't start with the finger pointing. They are equally guilty.
This is religion. This is what is wrong with religion. This is why religion must be abolished. Its' fantsay stuff to believe in a mystical God who knows and created all. Gaza tells you there is no God else he'd fix it for his "Chosen Ones". Being either side.
If there was a God and he sat by while this atrocity occurred what would you think of such a God? As you do believe, answer that question as your God is doing nothing. As usual.
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Patrick Daniels (Granada High) wroteon 16 January 2009 at 23:23
Israel forcefully took the land, so they are the true source of all of the violence.
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Patrick Daniels (Granada High) wroteon 16 January 2009 at 23:24
violence there is inevitable.
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You replied to Robby's poston 17 January 2009 at 12:11
Hello Robby
Your post is ambiguous and 'challenging' but challengable .
You have to put events in historical perspective for if it achieves nothing else at least it gives a basis for reconcilliation and redress .
If you do not recall your grieviances or the cause or causes of one of your bloodiest of bloody wars , what exactly would you remember is the reason for the fighting , maimings and killings . Remember the saying : " old sins have long shadows .....they protrude into the future " . So , historically , you have to know where your journey began to know where your destination will be .
Everything in that region is based on history . The old testament "before Jesus" is littered with even bloodier wars . Yet Arabs and Jews lived side by side . However the Israelis believe that as 'God's chosen People, the lands belong to them - more so since after 1948 after Hitler's Pogrom .
Ariel Sharon - Israeli Prime Minister -2001 was quoted in Agence France Press in November 15 , 1998 when he was Foreign Minister -addressed militants from the extreme right wing Tsomet Party : " it is the duty of every Israeli leader(s) to explain to public opinion , clearly and courageously a certain number of facts that are forgotten IN TIME ...... there is no Zionism , colonization or Jewish State without the eviction of Arabs ,and the expropriation of their lands " .
Every thing is rooted in history .There will be no Peace if its only one side who desperately wants it ..like the Palestinians . That incentive for Peace is called a HOMELAND ( you and I take for granted ) FOR THE UNJUSTLY EVICTED Ariel Sharon referred to above . Never say Never though for Peace .
The law of logic says that everything that has a beginning must have an end . It is impossible to annihilate any group of people as even Hitler with all his so-called wicked Master Plan found to Germany's cost . America's Bomb on Japan's Hiroshima and Nagasaki could not achieve annihilation either . All this carnage does is create another generation of future tit for tat innocent civilian killings . A generation that would want to avenge inhuman atrocities committed on their children , mothers , fathers , brothers, sisters and ........ad infinitum .
Being an atheist no crime in itself seem to have tainted your judgement on the situation . There is nothing wrong with religion per se . They say a Godless person has no conscience or humanity, therefore has no heart to be pricked in the face of unbridled inhumanity .
Gaza tells me that God is very much alive and kicking . I have faith and belief . Belief is beyond human understanding . You either have it or you have not . I can assure you that I am not a religious fanatic . I agree with you that a lot of atrocities have been committed and still being committed in the name of religion . The biggest being the Killing of "JESUS CHRIST" by ironically the Jews-some of which don't believe he's COME and Gone ! The Jews ( the Israelis ) are still fighting within the HISTORICAL CONTEXT OF THE OLD TESTAMENT . I guess you know that already .
I again agree with you that both Parties are as bad as each other , but ; one bears a bigger guilt than the other . ..... choose your side .
Remember they both have faith in the belief of their actions . To use a " Cruise Missile to kill a bed in a cage " is INHUMAN .
The faith in your belief is what breathes life into your existence . To believe in God is a previlege .
To answer your last challenge : read my first article before the main one above . Suffice to say that if God wasn't with Israel and Israel did not faithfully believe it could get away ( re -OLD TESTAMENT GOD INSPIRED VICTORIES ) ... how else they could and can turn renegade , flaunt civilised international laws and get away with it .!
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You replied to Patrick's poston 17 January 2009 at 12:40
Thank you Patrick for your perception of the ' violent ' events in that region .
Both Warring Parties know exactly what needs to be done - bar outside influence .. their respective military supporters , to achieve anything resembling Peace .
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Yosi D Yemin (Israel) replied to your poston 17 January 2009 at 16:03
How would that achieve peace?
The Hamas (among others) want all Jewish people out of Israel. If an outside party was brought in to upkeep an illusion of peace, it would change little. There would be more suicide bombers and less the Jewish people could do about it. You speak as if the Israeli government hasen't been trying to achieve peace with all its neighbors for over 30 years.
Do you think that Israelis are wrong for demanding that the Hamas cease fire?
Should they simply lay back and let the Hamas shower them with bombs?
This is not something they can just sit down and talk about, this is a serious issue, they are defending themselves against a constant threat to the lives of millions of civilians.
The hate between the Jewish people and their neighbors is not going to be easily abandoned by either side. Every time someone on either side of the conflict is hurt or killed, it just increases the intensity of their hate towards each other.
It is too late to undo the past,currently Israel belongs to the Jewish people and as long as there are those who will fight them because of it, then the conflict will continue. If however Israel succeeded in ridding themselves of the threat that is the Hamas (among other threats), then there would be a greater chance of achieving peace in my life time. Look at the past 60 years, Israel has come so far. We are closer now than ever before to peace.
This is not a religious war (although like most wars it does have some religious roots), this is people fighting for their homes and their families well being.
Your opinions tell me that you don't really know much about the Israeli conflict but you absolutely think you do. If you want to actually form an educated opinion about todays conflict, don't base it solely on information you got from news papers, historic and religious text. Talk to the people involved, talk to Israelis, talk to Palestinians but don't stop there, talk to the Lebanese, talk to Egyptians, argue both sides of the argument, see what the people actually involved have to say, see how they feel.
You pointing a blaming finger will not make things better, you're only making it worse. If you want to have a real debate, then don't mask your opinions with quotes, religion and trying to be "politically correct", just speak your mind.
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Paul Evans (Uxbridge Secondary School) wroteon 17 January 2009 at 16:12
How would barring their military supporters achieve anything resembling Peace. you said it your self that the problem goes back to Biblical times and then later after the 1948 relocation of the Jews. If you are barring the military influences then all that will happen is that the war will go on just with less weaponry, it wouldn't matter if they only had stones to fight with, the war between Israel and Gaza would still run rampant. Even if the war ceased today, there would still be hatred and anger toward the other group. Eventually the war would start up again, and again, and again until one group, either Israel or Gaza, were annihilated. This is a tricky situation because the feud i'll say started like 3000 years ago probably more, and then was resurfaced in 1948. I don't know what should be done, but i don't see how barring their Military supporters would achieve something resembling Peace.
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Post 15
You replied to Yosi's poston 21 January 2009 at 09:14
Hello Yosi
Thanks for your post .
I did not expect less passion for your stance ; but only disappointed you typically resorted to the time worn refrain of long abandoned Hamas rhetorics of 'wiping' Israel of the face off the earth . As if !
Hamas as a representative of its Stateless People would wish it can but knows it can never compete with the military might of Israel -- hence the psychological use of ineffectual rockets , which in itself is wrong . Undoubtedly , this is an asymmetric war in which both parties can never be totally victorious .
I agree with you that Israel as an entity is there to stay ( said so in an old article ) inspite of the misgivings of most Arab States which have since warmed to the idea of 'Israel ' in their midst ;* barred the people of Palestine who were displaced to create the State of Israel and has for sixty years seen it's land developed into settlements to house many more Jews from the diaspora . Nobody needed to go to HItler's Germany and it's People to feel the pain of that MONSTER'S ATROCITIES PERPETUATED AGAINST THE JEWS . I don't need to be a Jew then to denounce it and I certainly don't have to be a Palestinian now to appreciate their pain .
I agree with you again that this is not a religious war per se though some people see it differently . According to you , " this is a people fighting for their homes and their 'families' well being " . Well put ; because , therein lies the CRUX of the REASONS for most of the CAUSE (S) OF THE WAR (S) . Needless to say that in this case , the Palestinians have more to loose . especially since Mahmood's Abbas moderate Fattah which Israel claim's it can do business with has nothing so far to show for its fruitless negotiatons .
I must say that though this latter breeds more frustration to the Gazan Palestinians to the extent of electing Hamas , the military wing of the Palestinian Liberation Organisation , it is still better to talk than fight as against your paragraph 2 which advocates the alternative .
If you cannot see the corellation of these arguments , then even me as an outsider despairs of peace .
THE PALESTINIANS DESERVE A HOMELAND WHERE THEY TOO CAN BRING ITS ' GLOBALLY SCATTERED ' PEOPLE HOME AND CARE FOR THEIR FAMILIES WELL-BEING rather than live in a restricted open air Prison . * This is what the debate is about and ought to be about . After all , the Jews were forced to endure a similar circumstance at some point in their existence .
A little more quote for you to digest : " let us not ignore the truth among ourselves , politically , we are the aggressors and they defend themselves ; the country is theirs because they inhabit it , whereas , we want to come and settle down ......in their view , we want to take away from them their Country " . - ( BEN GURION -Prime Minister , 1949-54; 55-63 . - Simha Flapan's Zionism and the Palestinians ...pp141-142 in a 1938 Speech ; OR , Chomsky's Fateful Triangle -pp 91-92
I understand your passion but I think it might do you a little good to broaden your 'horizon' on the subject perhaps then , a little HUMANITY felt Globally in this war might touch you . Even Israel has it's Refuseniks .
Remember the main article above is written by your compatriot , Professor Avi Shlaim , served in the Israeli Army and well acquainted with the Israeli Conflicts with it's Arab neighbours . As for me I can assure you I know my subject .
Everything that has a beginning will certainly have an end .
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Ayman Abo Essa replied to Jacob's poston 21 January 2009 at 10:21
The problem is not in the Hamas rockets, but the problem is Israel's occupation of Palestinian territory, and the ongoing attempts to change the history of Palestine and to change the facts on the Palestinian land during the fight against the entire Palestinian people and the destruction of homes and institutions and the entire infrastructure of the Palestinian people, Israeli war has targeted Hamas alone, but against the Palestinian people in all its components, and this is not the first war waged by Israel against the Palestinian people, in 2002, Israel destroyed a Palestinian cities in the West Bank and committed many crimes and massacres against unarmed Palestinians on several occasions. then the rockets of Hamas were not exist.
Since 2002 , almost every day there is an Israeli attack on Palestinians in the West Bank, which is described as an oasis of security and calm, and in the Gaza Strip ahich destroy their homes trees, cities and killing children and civilians.
The problem is the occupation, and the doctrine of absolute power exercised by Israel to silence any voice of Palestinian demands that the historical right of the Palestinian people, the firm on its territory, through the many historic facts and through the resolutions of international legitimacy, which confirm the presence of Palestinian history and support the Palestinian rights in Palestine.
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Kemal Krkl (Turkey) wroteon 21 January 2009 at 10:33
Israel is the perfect example how a state should be ruled.
Hamas took one of them,Israel retaliated and have taken 100.There have been civilian casualties in the process,but then this is the only option terrorists have given them.If Hamas were man enough they wouldn't hide behind 9 month old babies like cunts.
Had the pussy politicians in my birth country applied the similar ways to overcome terrorism maybe we wouldn't have to spend millions for firearms and national defense today.
As for the Palestine-Israel conflict,surely it will be bloody,there will be pain and sorrow for both sides but i sincerely hope things will get better for everyone,once terror is over.
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Post 18
Ayman Abo Essa replied to your poston 21 January 2009 at 18:26
Dear Margaret,
Palestine is the land of the Arabs, Canaanites, the land of all religions, where Jews and Christians lived and Muslims.
Any discussion of the Palestinian issue based on the historical right of the Jews in Palestine would not be an objective or logical, The Jews have not been able to prove their rights of religious or historic in Palestine lands, in spite of the continued Israeli excavations continued for more than 50 in Jerusalem and other Palestinian cities, they could not be able to discover any of of the effects or historic Jewish state or ruins, but the history of Christians and Muslims is real and constant in all of history and geography of Palestine.
On this basis, the Palestinian problem has nothing to do with any contemporary and religious conflict or a history of the Jews in Palestine.
However, the new palistine conflect / problem started in late 18 century when the world Zionist movement (which is a political movement has nothing to do with the Jewish religion) offered itself as the representative of all Jews around the world. And held a number of agreements and understandings with some leaders of the main countries at that time to be given a national homeland for Jews.
Some places have been identified in Europe and Africa to be a homeland for the Jews, Palestine was not that time one of the identified places .
Later, with the beginning of the nineteenth century and during the First World War and in 1917, the world Zionist movement was able to extract a promise from the Foreign Minister of UK "Lord Balfour" to give the Jewish a national home in Palestine, and for some of the following reasons:
1 - equivalent to the World Zionist movement and its role in the pro-Britain and its allies in the global debris.
2 - The presence of a historical relationship to the Jews in Palestine( The alleged relationship).
3 - Position of Palestine strategic link between the continents of the ancient world .
4 - the elimination of the Jewish presence in Europe.
5 - to lay and create a strange entity in the heart of the Arab region, backed by Muslim and a supporter of the colonial powers to create a majority of non-Alistferrar and continuous wars, through which the colonial Powers to continue to sell weapons and military equipment Alascripbmilirat of dollars annually.( To say that the war is between the Jewish and Muslim).
This was confirmed during the previous 60 years, since the year 1947, the date of the announcement and the establishment of the State of Israel on Palestinian land, Israel launched a war in 1948 with unlimited support from the colonial powers in Europe and the uprooting of the civilized Palestinian people from the history of civilized/ developed towns and villages, and displacement of Palestinian history and displaced to neighboring countries, where lived in tents after the houses and luxury palaces, where the face all kinds of hunger and poverty after the richness they had, Palestine was one of the richest countries in the Middle East, before the British Mandate.
The war of 1948 held by Israil againest the palistinians, was the biggest and the worst crime of conspiracy to a nation of the whole in recent history and old at all.
To stabilize its presence, and since then, Israil have carried out more than 10 official fierce wars against the Palestinians and the Arabs, killing hundreds of thousands of women, children and the old people in Palestine, Lebanon, Egypt and other Arab countries, other milions were enjered and permanently.
While acknowledging the right of Israel in presence on the land of Palestine, the Arab accept and shown their willingness to negotiate with the Israeli side on the basis of a peaceful solution to ensure that the two independent states " Israil and Palistine" living in peace side by side, and on this basis, the income-led Palestinian leader Yasser Arafat went in serious negotiations with the Israeli side since 1991 ( till now nothing happened), and based on this effort have been granted to Yasser Arafat the Nobel Peace Prize shared with the late Israeli Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin, whom both was killed at the hands of gangs of extremist anti- peace in Israil , as well as President Yasser Arafat who was killed by poison by the Israelis, nazist and criminal Ariel Sharon.
because all of the Israelis are not ready to reach a peace agreement with the Palestinians, and are not yet willing to reach a peaceful settlement to the conflict with the Palestinians, they are still holding over 12000 Palestinian and Arab prisoners in jails in Israelis, they continue to build walls of separation and racism continues to separate Palestinian areas from each other, both in the West Bank or Gaza, they impeding the movement of Palestinians between their towns and villages and places of work, it is true to say the the Palestinian needs more than 8 hours to be able to move in a distance of almost 15 km, and for one full day " more than 12 hours " to travel from the border of Jordan to the occupied Palestine areas (only 65 kilometers), because of military roadblocks and checkpoints where many Israeli soldiers hobbies to insult the Palestinian citizen and mocking their humanity and humiliation.
It is noted that Israeli leaders are competing / racing and show greater degree of hostility and hatred against the Palestinians, because the increase in the killing of Palestinians and the more brilliant the hatred against the Palestinians, as they won in the elections and the more senior positions in the leadership of Israel, and this confirms to say that Israel is a political creature of the Zionist movement, and to those who rule Israel are now the leaders of the World Zionist Movement, which are not far from the Jewish religion, because all religions, including Judaism renounce hatred and murder, the crime carried out by the rulers of Israel since its establishment until today. ( The recent Israeli war on Gaza had been under the title race, the Israeli elections.) .
This is A small part of the picture of suffering and oppression practiced by Israel against the Palestinian people.
But the full immage is seen and viewed by the Palestinian people on a daily basis for more than 60 years of unjust israili occupation.
The problem is the occupation, and only occupation is the cause of suffering for all people of our region, and all people of the world, end the israili occupation, for sure everything will end.
In spite of all the events and the wars waged on the Palestinians still have to be void and must be defeated to win the right.
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Post 19
You replied to Kemal's poston 22 January 2009 at 10:58
Thank you Kemal for your contribution ; but please stick to civilised language within the context of the discussion .
What are you doing in ' imperfect Turkey ' when you should be in the military defending your " birth country " Israel .
Surely , you wouldn't like to be that one Israeli death statistics as against Gazan Palestinian 100 . I thought not .
The simple fact is : nobody needs to die if a just solution of a 2-State solution is found ( by all these globe trotting politicians ) based on the root cause (s) of these interminable wars .
I believe peace will come .. but not through the barrels of the guns , bombs or r
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